Troy Unrau ([info]troy_at_kde) wrote,
@ 2009-07-08 13:48:00
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Potentially Rhetorical Question: Does KDE 4 have fewer options?
So, a question that stems from my previous post: There seems to be a perception that KDE 4 has less options than KDE 3. Where does this perception come from, and can examples be provided either way? I provide some possible answers from my own experiences, but please feel free to append this list in the comments.

Possible source 1: Kcontrol->system settings migration: by removing the tree view, less things are exposed simultaneous, thereby presenting the appearance of having less configuration options.

Possible source 2: Kickoff style menu: by only allowing the user to see one level of the menu at a time, there appears to be less items to choose from.

Possible source 3: Plasma: options for display are given directly in the user interface rather than in the standard KDE config dialogs, which produces fewer overcrowded dialogs when compared to kicker/kdesktop.

Possible source 4: Konqueror -> Konqueror + Dolphin: by splitting the file management out, at least by default, the apps appear to have less imposing configuration dialogs.

Possible source 5: Application porting delays: not all apps are ported yet, so inter-app integration is missing in places. For example, Amarok 2 lacks integration with k3b while k3b is being ported.

Possible source 6: The defaults for KDE are such that users don't feel the need to configure things as much.

Possible source 7: KDE 4 actually has less to configure! (Is this even possible?)

So, my friends, I'd like to know the opinions of PlanetKDE readers. The public perception that KDE 4 has less configuration to do that KDE 3 had to originate somewhere, but the question is, "Where?".

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(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 06:27 pm UTC (link)
I think all of the points are valid, with point 7 being linked with point 5, since KDE4 is made of apps :)

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Lack of features
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 06:32 pm UTC (link)
Both for KOffice and for Plasma, there is/was indeed an important lack of features in the first KDE 4 version.

For KOffice: Support for tables in KWord
For Plasma: Icons on the desktop (now implemented), MacOS-style menu bar (not yet implemented)

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konqueror+dolphin
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 06:52 pm UTC (link)
A bit off-topic, but you mention that dolphin is separated from konqueror by default,

does that mean that one could embed dolphin within konqueror?

Because I would really love that, once normal dolphin part for konqueror totally sucks, by not having any of the nice dolphin features like the side bars

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: konqueror+dolphin
[info]troy_at_kde
2009-07-08 07:40 pm UTC (link)
Afaik, and I could be wrong, you can only use the dolphin part, and not the sidebars, for example.

Not sure the future plans though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Origins
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 06:57 pm UTC (link)
I will say that the perception came from the first KDE 4.0 release.
One of the big complaints was that you could not move icons on the panel, add to them, create desktop shortcuts and the like. As we know all of that is remedied. The default Konqueror settings look too much like Dolphin. With a little work you can get it look more like the KDE3 version, but it is missing its 'swiss army knife' feel. Again, I think this is more about the initial KDE 4 release and not what is presently shipping. Maybe there's a lesson to be learned here, perhaps releasing too early with missing features taints the entire line as far as PR goes. Some people will try it at release .0 and then proclaim thereafter, their initial experiences, which later becomes ingrained in lore. Very hard to combat myths.

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Re: Origins
[info]http://claimid.com/notklaatu
2009-07-09 03:30 am UTC (link)
I believe this is correct; the first 4.0 release of KDE did have fewer options, I think. For whatever reason, people base their cliches upon this version. I've found there to be about as much configurability in 4.2.x and above as I personally need, with a few exceptions perhaps -- yet I find the configuration menus and options FAR less cluttered and overwhelming than those of KDE 3.5.x

(Reply to this) (Parent)
#8
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 07:01 pm UTC (link)
8. Specific features that someone used in KDE 3 are missing from KDE 4. I've heard specific complaints about the "mac-like"/global menu bar being absent.

[yes, I know about xbar and the bespin theme]

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: #8
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 07:09 pm UTC (link)
I will go with,
Possible source 6: The defaults for KDE are such that users don't feel the need to configure things as much.
As I find nothing wrong at all with default setup... ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: #8
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 09:59 pm UTC (link)
That's the same #8 I thought of.

I think Plasma, Dolphin and obviously System Settings got a lot of criticism because they're new applications and new defaults (desktop/panel, file manager and settings). For example I've seen many comparing Dolphin to Nautilus and how KDE has been "dumbed down like Gnome".

Personally this is one of the things I like in kde4 - while I personally love lots of options (power to the user!), I found many configuration dialogs in kde3 to be cluttered and hard to navigate. Kopete's for example is still too much in my opinion (should be easier to "just log in"), but it's getting better.

With that said, there are still some settings I miss in kde4 (although I can't think of any specific right now).

By the way, why can I post this comment without entering the captcha?

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Re: #8
[info]troy_at_kde
2009-07-09 02:11 pm UTC (link)
Because LJ is pretty good at spam filtering :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)
It depends...
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 07:07 pm UTC (link)
There are more options in some areas (activities is such a wonderful thing... I cannot understand how I lived without them before ;) ) but in others there are fewer... my pebble pet:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172056
I hate the "mouse wheel change desktop" thing. I always disabled it on kde 3 and now I can't. The work-around (using the folder-view containment) works... but it's just a work-around, it will never replace a simple configuration option.
Otherwise, I feel more freedom in kde 4.2.4 than in 3.x.
Can't wait for 4.3

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: It depends...
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 09:48 pm UTC (link)
You should cheer for Chani and her GSoC project then, e.g. see http://chani.wordpress.com/2009/06/29/gsoc-week-5/

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 07:22 pm UTC (link)
I think it has to do with missing features in kde4 apps, like the tree view in gwenview (done in 4.3 I think). There are still some (minor) things missing, but most of the stuff seems to be covered right now.

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Restructured KDE
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 08:33 pm UTC (link)
Honestly, I don't miss a thing these days in my daily use. I agree with an anonymous above (subject: Origins) that said it's possibly from 4.0 first impression (and I'd risk to say maybe even 4.1). I also agree with another anonymous (subject: Re: #8) about default settings making users to tweak less. But I also think things are better organized (which indeed was an effort on KDE4 redevelopment/reformulation/restructuring/simplification - yeah, all that) and as so we can accomplish the same (and more) stuff we did on 3 with fewer options.

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(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 09:05 pm UTC (link)
The perception of having less configuration options is a very good thing: it means that the settings interfaces look less cluttered to the users.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]troy_at_kde
2009-07-08 09:14 pm UTC (link)
Perception of simplicity may be a good thing for some users, but to others, they think it's been crippled. Half-full or half-empty. Part of what I'd like to do is track perceptions about KDE and compare them to reality. Where they match, that's good. Where they don't match, that's bad. For example, the perception that KDE 4.0.0 was going to rock the world came from somewhere - but where? Since it didn't match reality, that was bad. The perception that KDE 4 is easier to configure is good, if true. The perception that KDE 4 has been crippled is bad, if true or untrue. Etc.

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(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 10:22 pm UTC (link)
This is an integral part of design. In fact, questions and guidelines considering configurability should perhaps have been raised in the earliest phases of design. These rules and concepts can then be followed throughout development.
The mere fact that you raise the question after / in the middle of the project shows this has not been an integral part of design. Still some lessons can be learned from this.

[4] My gut feeling says the spin-off file manager did simplify things, but on the other hand, the original platform was never simplified into a browser sec.
[6] There is no reason to applaud ourselves on the defaults. I mean, was there ever serious research into workflow, user preferences, etc? Chances KDE got it right by common sense and chance alone are slim. The plasma widgets especially have the potential of substantially improving a user's workflow and experience. The default plasma widgets and layouts show nothing of this potential. Help and educate the user to realize the potential!

Sorry for stating things a bit harshly here. It is great that you raise these questions. Hope arrive at answers by further research and thinking. It is imperative to help the continual development.

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(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 11:19 pm UTC (link)
I REALLY miss the ability to have a separate wallpaper in each desktop. As trivial as that sounds, it provides useful visual cues as to where you're working. I believe Aaron said this would be restored in a future release; don't remember which one, but I hope it's 4.3

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(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 11:27 pm UTC (link)
http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19397
Yep, there's a GUI option for this (and for having a separate dashboard) in KDE 4.3: http://www.notmart.org/images/dashboard_config.png

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-07-09 01:03 am UTC (link)
It's possible in 4.3. On the other hand, I never managed to do it under the 3.x series.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-07-09 01:45 am UTC (link)
There is still 2 missing things in KDE4 for me.

1) The ability to access to external partitions (Windows for example) easily. It was possible, but it is not anymore...

2) The ability to configure Phonon with more advanced options, like the ability to use Dmix, or to activate the passtrough, without having play with a config file.

All of these things used to be default or easy to configure in KDE 3.

Now there are also things we need to get used to, but KDE 4 is getting great.

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[info]notanavragelosr
2009-07-09 03:11 am UTC (link)
As with the others, I feel the perceptions started with KDE 4.0.0. Specifically the panel. There just wasn't really anything a user could do with it.

That, and, as the guy above me mentions, the multimedia configuration. Luckily Phonon has always Just Worked for me, and in a manner that I desire. That said, I know Xine has a lot more options than what I see in the System Settings dialog.

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[info]keithzg
2009-07-09 07:11 am UTC (link)
Howabout that Guidance still hasn't been ported/integrated-back-in to System Settings? I know that several of the modules of Guidance that I often used in System Settings are quite conspicuously absent from KDE4.

Just the other day my sister was having problems with the openssh server daemon on her large laptop (she was using sshfs to load her home folder on her little EeePC 701 running fluxbox + KDE apps). It obviously needed to be restarted, so I opened up system settings about to go and open the "System Services" module which I use all the time in KDE 3.5 to start, stop, restart, and toggle on-boot-or-not services.

But it's not there.

NONE of Guidance's modules are in KDE4's version of System Settings as of so far, thus (to call them by their program names) no serviceconfig, no wineconfig, no userconfi and no mountconfig. That's four very user-centric modules that each contain tons of options, many of which are definitely ones that users would want to tweak/change.

And they're all gone from KDE4, at least as of the current 4.3 as far as I can tell with my computers that are running it (that, and the fact that according to the actual guy working on it it's definitely being put off until at least 4.4, see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2009-July/002978.html).

Also, although KUser still exists, last I checked it isn't integrated into System Settings, so as a generic user you have to be clairvoyant and know it's there.

All that being said, at least from my trials and tribulations with serviceconfig.py (ie. "System Services"), the program itself runs fine...I just had to snag it from SVN and run it with kdesudo.

I'm sure there are other issues, but the absence of the four very crucial modules provided by Guidance, and the hidden nature of KUser, are what come to mind at the moment.

Or to put it bluntly, the reason that people think that KDE 4 has fewer options is because, at this point, it still does.

(Reply to this)

its the cashew
(Anonymous)
2009-07-09 11:50 am UTC (link)
Panel-> more settings. There's not much there for someone looking to kustomise their panel appearance.

(Reply to this)

Add users
(Anonymous)
2009-07-09 03:23 pm UTC (link)
There's still no possibility to add/delete useres or manage the groups.
KDE 4.3rc1

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Add users
[info]seajey
2009-07-09 06:49 pm UTC (link)

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Less options is surely a good thing
(Anonymous)
2009-07-09 06:49 pm UTC (link)
I have to admit that i tend to be put off by the number of options in KDE vs Gnome. Admittedly Gnome deliberately omits a lot of configurability in favour of simplicity, but there are times in KDE where I do wonder "Does anybody REALLY need to change that". Or at least does it need to be on a main config page rather than hidden in an "advanced" menu.
I used both 3.5 and 4, though neither very much, and 4 did seem less overwhelming, though maybe that's more to do with options being better laid out. But more generally I feel a computer is there to do things so that you don't have to, so the more it can configure itself without me having to fiddle with checkboxes and sliders the better!

(Reply to this)

Printing
(Anonymous)
2009-07-09 10:17 pm UTC (link)
The lack of a full printer configuration tool is still pretty glaring.

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Are you kidding?
(Anonymous)
2009-11-10 04:03 pm UTC (link)
I was finally forced to switch to kde4. The configurations are much harder to find (aka, tree view isn't the default and there's apparently no way to open it with an expanded tree view), many are missing (kdeprint is still not ported for example), they're spread all over the place (panels can ONLY be configured with that stupid mouse driven configuration which is much more mysterious than a simple box for height, etc). Then you have added features like widgets which have partial and spread out configuration, which makes findability poor.

It's a lot of change for change's sake, which usually leads to worse, not better, interfaces. It's not terrible -- some pernicious bugs due to ill design in 3.5 were eliminated, but this approach of making the system "appear" simpler is just insane. Who do people think are using kde? Do you really imagine you're going to make headway into the folks who use macs and want the system with a fixed "Just works" configuration (just works, as long as you want it just like Steve Jobs does!)

Gnome isn't unconfigurable are "simpler". It's just a pain to configure, because all configuration is hidden away from the users in gconf configurations. It's difficult to expose, difficult to find, difficult to know the options. This is not a good direction for kde -- it sure creates a lot of philosophical jibber-jabber, instead of empirical advantage.

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