troy_at_kde: Does KDE even need (certain) users?

Troy Unrau (

troy_at_kde) wrote,
@ 2008-06-25 21:20:00

Does KDE even need (certain) users?
So, this is a rant. Please don't quote me on this article, as my opinion might have changed a day after posting. In the meantime, there's a rant I've been meaning to write for a long time that I've put off since I'm officially wearing the KDE Marketing hat. Tonight, I take it off.

"Does KDE even need users?"

If the users are harming the project, we don't need those users. I've hesitated to tell these users to (quoting the recently deceased Carlin) "go outside and play hide and go fuck yourself."

From a cynical point of view, the only real benefit to KDE of having users is that some users turn into developers. This directly benefits the KDE project, the code, and the KDE developers who are writing the software (essentially) for themselves. Marketing in Open Source is a bit of a misnomer anyway, as we don't really benefit directly from having more users. Sure, every user loves to be on the winning side of the KDE-Gnome tug-of-war, but in all honesty, if you're harming the project, find a different project to be a rabid user of. If they'll take you. Which I doubt. I wouldn't wish the poisonous users on Gnome, XFCE, or any other project that you might gravitate to...

KDE and open source is not ever obligated to please users. We are not obligated to fix bugs. We are not obligated to implement things that you demand. We are not obligated to provide open forums for you to attack us personally. If you are kind to us, we might do some of those things.

So if you are one of these poisonous users who offer no thanks for the time, energy and skill that goes into creating KDE, please go away. Find another project to harass (preferably closed source) as we've had enough of it.

Now that I've said that, I'm off to start the race of Vulcans. Emotions are totally useless for technical development.

[/end rant]

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(86 comments) - (Post a new comment)

O'reilly?
(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 06:10 am UTC (link)

I do understand some developers might become frustrated because of the pile of shit they are getting over them (Hi Aaron :D). I know KDE is made by volunteers and I don't nag about bugs (I just do bug reports) or missing features. And some users are very demanding saying stuff like "you MUST make/fix this NOW".

I don't think it's fair that you can say all users should STFU. You need users to improve "your" products, users have a complete other view on a product. They see things programmers don't see, such a UI problems.

Anyways I hope your rant cleared up your mind :D

- Gerwin

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: O'reilly? (Anonymous) 2008-06-26 07:40 am UTC (link)
	"I don't think it's fair that you can say all users should STFU." Just as well that he didn't say this at all, then, I guess ... ? (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Reply from suspended user)

	right back at ya (Anonymous) 2008-06-26 07:20 am UTC (link)
	Fair enough but it cuts both ways. You don't need us - we don't need you. I've been looking forward to 4.1 and gave various 4.0.x releases a go and have even defended KDE4 on Ubuntu forums. But if your post is indicative of the attitude of KDE developers then I will just walk away. Allan (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: right back at ya
(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 08:03 am UTC (link)

If you get upset so easily about what he blogged about without apparently really understanding what he said then maybe you should just walk away. Or run even.

This "users see things developers can't" issue gets abused too much. Some developers are actually really good users even though other developers worship the terminal while creating the desktop (or a very opensource graphics driver that eats systems if you attempt do anything with 3D opengl that moves... :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: right back at ya - (Anonymous), 2008-06-27 02:04 am UTC

Re: right back at ya - (Anonymous), 2008-06-27 09:11 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

	No users needed for KDE (Anonymous) 2008-06-26 07:21 am UTC (link)
	KDE doesn't need users. Developers don't need users. However: Companies who sponsor developers need users. So if you are a person who is being sponsored to work on KDE and promote it, stop being an emo and deal with trolls. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: No users needed for KDE (Anonymous) 2008-06-27 09:16 am UTC (link)
	Ever thought people working on KDE are no robots? Most of them aren't even paid for it! And even those who are sponsored often invest a lot more in their sparetime. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Reply from suspended user)

(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 07:28 am UTC (link)

Hi. I've taken ambein but still can't sleep so I'm going to babble into this edit box. If it's gibberish, please delete it.

I don't think you should care if you lose some users because of changes you think are in the best long-term interest of the project. Gnome lost a lot of its users with the 2.0 redesign but become the dominant linux desktop platform as a result. There was over a year of flamewars before everything settled down.

Some of the more conservative distros will be keeping 3.5.x around for a few more years. I've not seen this mentioned nearly enough. People who don't want to use kde4 don't have to. Beat people over the head with the fact that KDE 3.5.x isn't going away any time soon. That should reassure most people with misgivings about kde4. Whoever's left is either a troll or just doesn't know to not be an asshole.

A related rant:

IMHO, most of the more innovative open source software is stuff that people design to scratch an itch of their own rather than to meet the needs of some idealized user. See Ion, for example. People without formal training in HCI and lots of money to spend on usability testing shouldn't try to to target the "average user." Doing so runs a grave risk of missing the target and ending up with software that doesn't really meet the needs of anyone. Code stuff to meet your own needs first and formost. If other people like it, great, if not, fuck em.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Not just programmers

krishnoid.myopenid.com
2008-07-29 06:04 pm UTC (link)

Code stuff to meet your own needs first and formost.

Or the needs of your loved ones or neighborhood/community/organization. Just because someone can't program doesn't mean they don't use your product to excellent effect, visualize features they could really use effectively in their workflow, or visualize integrations between products that you personally don't use in conjunction with each other.

As a programmer, you're shortchanging yourself and the eventual utility of the product if you don't honestly consider the feedback of your users. But by users, I mean 'I use this every day, I choose to use this product every day, and it's as personal to me as an end-product as the code is personal to you as a programmer.', not 'I sort of checked this out a couple times and it would be a cool idea for someone else to implement this feature, for someone else to maintain it, and for yet someone else to use it.'

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Reply from suspended user)

Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years.
(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 07:30 am UTC (link)

First of all i have to say that i am a user of Linux since the mid 90's. But i am only a user. I do my e-mail, the webbrowsing and all of my private photo editing (Digikam rules) with Linux and KDE. It was not always easy, because Linux and KDE lacks some features especially in the beginning. But there was always an improvement. Year by year KDE got better and better.

I earn my money as a Java programmer in a Windows shop. So as i am doing programming work all the day i do not want to hack on the evening on Linux or KDE. But what i do as a user is donate money to programs like Firefox or Distributions like Suse (Buy Boxed Versions). But than came KDE 4 and the developers promised a big release with revolutionary features and the asked for some time to make this big promise real. KDE 4 comes and i have tested the RC's and it was a real disaster. Nothing works as expected and KDE 4 crashes all the time. So i read the blogs that KDE 4.0 <> KDE4 and that KDE 4.0 is only a Developer release and not for Users. I as a user can not understand this release policy but no problem it is as it is. So i tried to go back to KDE 3.5.9, but i was not happy with it either because it is getting pretty old compared to other Desktop Environments. And than i read more and more postings in blogs of KDE Developer that users should shut up and have nothing to say. That only developers rules and the users are not important for the whole project. So sadly i have to say that i switched to gnome 2 month ago and i think for a user this Desktop Environment is the better choice.

So a big thank you to all KDE Developer who made KDE such a big success in the past, but shame on them who are thinking users of KDE are not important for a Project like KDE.

Flar

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years.
(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 08:17 am UTC (link)

I guess on a blog thats marked as a rant its expected, but to be clear the parent (Flar) is the kind of post that adds nothing and just is a rant of its own by someone that by his own admission hasn't tried ever tried an actually released version of KDE.

For people like Flar, yes, please go away. Come and try out KDE every now and then, but your negative comments without bugreports and backtraces are not needed and just plain unwanted.

Thomas.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 09:47 am UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-07-05 10:35 pm UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-07-29 06:46 pm UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 08:21 am UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 08:41 am UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 09:44 am UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 11:05 am UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 11:42 am UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 12:32 pm UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-27 09:28 am UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-27 09:56 am UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-27 11:07 am UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 04:14 pm UTC

Re: Now i know why i have left KDE after so many years. - (Anonymous), 2008-06-27 05:33 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

Users become Developers

nikolaj.hald.nielsen.myopenid.com
2008-06-26 08:12 am UTC (link)

Troy,

I can completely understand where this rant is coming from. For many people, hacking on KDE is a labor of love, and something many do for their own enjoyment and to scratch their own itch. So having people start making demands and treating developers as if they were somehow owed something, can be horribly demotivating.

That said however, I think that you should never underestimate the effect of being able to turn users into developers. In my view, this is actually what very often separates successful and unsuccessful projects, as the project with a large user base and mind share simply moves forward at a greater pace.

This is also why we at Amarok HQ try to keep Amarok 2 development as visible to the users as possible. Of course we get quite a few "I hate what you are doing, you are ruining my favorite app, how dare you, you suck!" trolls ( interestingly enough, these have decreased significantly lately for us, but obviously not so elsewhere ), but we also get people who like what they see come and help out with the project. And lo and behold, we do actually also get constructive criticism from time to time, offering a fresh perspective on some things, that we act on.

So do we need users? I think we very much do, and personally, I friend it very satisfying feeling that some people actually like what I am doing and want to use this app. So I think that, of course, we should listen to our users, but the users also need to respect that we don't automatically jump at every suggestion, or criticism as we might not agree or have a different vision. So maybe this has to do with educating users as well?

As for the kind of pathetic trolls spewing personal attack and more or less stalking developers, they need to be beheaded on sight and their heads placed on poles outside castle KDE as a warning to other would be trolls. THOSE particular users we could do very well without!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Users become Developers troy_at_kde 2008-06-26 03:45 pm UTC (link)
	I agree that this is the most important function that users have to the long term health of an open source project. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Reply from suspended user)

	Chris (Anonymous) 2008-06-26 08:22 am UTC (link)
	Troy, thanks for this. As a rant it's exaggerated, of course. But I think you make a good point here. Just wanted to give you positive feedback on this, as you obviously cared to think before writing it down (even though it is a rant). Sadly there are people who seem not to get what you said. (Reply to this) (Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)

	(Anonymous) 2008-06-26 09:45 am UTC (link)
	You're free to have that view, but I'm sure many other contributors would like to see the lives of other people improved by free and quality software. Their personal reason for contributing is a political and social one, and just as you are free to not care about users, they are free to make free software as widely valuable as possible. Cheers, (Reply to this) (Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)

please let me stay
(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 09:49 am UTC (link)

i'm a normal user and i don't want to leave KDE, so please, let me stay! KDE4 is shiny and makes me go YEAH all the time. ok there are some problems with KDE4 but hey, it is a project made by volunteers, so I don't complain.
Instead of complaining i praise the lords that there are people who want to spend their free time to create a great project like KDE

so keep up the good work and forget all the things those "users" say. and remember this: I lOVE YOU

Tommi

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: please let me stay troy_at_kde 2008-06-26 03:47 pm UTC (link)
	You are obviously not the real target of this rant. You are very welcome to use and keep using KDE, as people like you motivate the developers. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Yeah, right
(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 10:07 am UTC (link)

Of course software doesn't need users. Having no users makes everything easier, no annoying bug reports, no investigating crashes you cannot reproduce, not having to deal with other people's expectations and so on. From the developer's perspective, it is of course much more fun to develop just for yourself.

So while it is perfectly obvious that software doesn't need users, it shoud be obvious as well that users need software. If the software they're currently using becomes outdated (and the last major user-oriented release of KDE is from 2005), they will first try to complain, since this requires less effort than finding and learning an alternative program. When complaining doesn't help, they will sooner or later make the move to another software anyways. Once their new software becomes stagnant, the cycle starts again. That's just the way it goes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Try to look at the bigger picture: KDE 3.5 is becoming old and is not exactly bug-free either (with 3.5.9 in Kubuntu, KMail is still eating my IMAP mail occasionally, the fish protocol doesn't work on AMD64, Konqueror is abysmally slow without a DNS cache and KDE_NO_IPV6 and so on), while a drop-in replacement is a long way off (fullscreen folderview and other stuff is curently planned for 4.2, I don't know about the current status of the Mac OS style menus and autohide taskbar), if there will be one at all.

So right now, the KDE crisis is (hopefully) at it's peak, 4.1. and later versions will (hopefully) turn the tide and take some of the poison out of disgruntled users. Of course it's not nice that people give you all kinds of crap about your volunteer work, but it's also a bit naive to think that they turned viscious without any factual reason. Users built their workflow around KDE's software and they become upset when you break it. In a way, you could say that KDE3's previous success became KDE4's biggest burden. Sort of like XP became the biggest problem of Vista :-)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Yeah, right seajey 2008-06-26 11:00 am UTC (link)
	Second it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Yeah, right - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 02:05 pm UTC

Re: Yeah, right - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 03:17 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

	Ubuntu philosophy (Anonymous) 2008-06-26 03:16 pm UTC (link)
	That's why I like the Ubuntu philosophy: Ubuntu for human beings. Ubunteros aim to develop or contribute with others, for human beings and with humanity in mind. Your attitude would break the first article of the Ubuntu code of conduct (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct): be considerate. (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Ubuntu philosophy
(Anonymous)
2008-06-27 09:07 am UTC (link)

"Ubunteros aim to develop or contribute with others, for human beings and with humanity in mind."

As does KDE. I note with interest that the Ubuntu Forums has a far, *far* more heavy-handed approach to bona-fide trolls - which is what Troy is talking about here, for people who are still missing the point - than KDE has, with a long list of deleted posts, threads, and bannings.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

KDE needs (nearly) every user we can get
(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 03:58 pm UTC (link)

You wrote: Does KDE even need (certain) users?

The "certain" in brackets so in the end you would be happy with no users at all?

Well this whole thing makes me angry.There were a few users who misbehaved. A lot of negativ emotions cumulated in the developers. But no this seems to come out all together in the other direction. From the developers to the users. Not some users but the users very close to KDE. Users who really care for KDE, users who run developing versions, write bug reports, tell others about KDE, bring in Ideas. Most ot theses users although they bring in critic are really needed.

Users we do not need are the one who act with te developers without any respect. Users who are calling them dictators. But that are just an absolut minority of the users who come with things the complain about.

It is not always easy to deal with them but we need them. We need them them. Because they care for KDE, that makes them so vocal. KDE needs people who really care from it who are really passionate about using it. These are the one what do bring critc to the devs but on the others site stand up for KDE in the User communitys (the Forums of the online magazines, the forums and mailling lists of the distributes and so on).

And it were the users who most likey will become a constributor to KDE on day.

But KDE also needs the average users for various reasons:

1. Most of the devs do not get money, the might do it just for themselves. Its fun to do developing for KDE but one motivation for doing it in open source is although to be part of something which users like, which makes a difference in the (software) world. They need positives comments and the feeling that someone likes and uses what they are doing. Not every developer may feel that why but appreciation is one of the key motivations to doing this all.

2.(Nearly) Every developer was once a user and is still a user. Not only of KDE but of a lot of other software. And more importent: Every user may become a constributer at every moment. It were mostly users who bring in the things at kde-looks.org for example. OK when they doing it they have somehow become constributor. But that happens every now and then.

In the longtermin opensource software without others will die.

3. There are developers who are paid for KDE. I think KDE also really needs them because they do a huge amount of work and there is a lot of work to do. Without a user base and a software which is liked by users they would stop paying developers for KDE,they would stop soponsering for things like Akademy.

4.And again: I often see blog posts were a dev happly tells about a positive review of the things he has done in some magazine or on some big website. That won't happen without KDE having users.

I understand that Troys post was a rent and marked that way. But I think more of such blog posts will really harm KDE. It is a start of doing the same thing a few of the users have done in the other direction. There will be users who were vocal about the things because they care for KDE and now they could feeling them addressed by this blog article.

And: I understand a lot of the users. They are seeing KDE 3.5 stuck. It is no fun to use software were no active development is going on. On the other site KDE 4 (also 4.1) is not ready for a lot of them. I can understand that. The developers must at least understand that it is a hard time for the users too.

But things will change soon. KDE 4.1 seems to make things a lot better. And with the release of 4.2 by the beginng of 2009 everything will be complete different, if the community (the developers and the users (the one close to KDE and the average user) stands together in this hard times.

Oh that has become quite long and yeah it is not thought through. ;-)

DanielW

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: KDE needs (nearly) every user we can get
(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 04:45 pm UTC (link)

> The "certain" in brackets so in the end you would be happy with no users at all?

No, thats not what it said; it said that KDE does not NEED users.
I see to many users come in and claim the devs need to listen (by giving their opinion). And then get angry when they feel they are ignored.

Remember, the users are optional. If you are a user that communicates in a way that I don't like, I can just stop listening to you. Its that simple. And thats all the post says.

Bottom line; if you are a user and you feel something is not right, either be friendly and constructive, or be silent and use some other software.

Thomas

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: KDE needs (nearly) every user we can get - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 05:08 pm UTC

You misunderstand Troy, I think

kwilliam.blogspot.com
2008-06-26 04:30 pm UTC (link)

Most of you commenters have completely missed the point. Troy is not being an evil anti-user developer. He's not being "inconsiderate". Perhaps you read Troy's blog but not PlanetKDE, or and don't know the circumstances of this post. To all ye ignorant people who say "Now I know why I left KDE" or "So you think you don't need users", basically, there has been a slew of angry ranting idiots harassing KDE developers, some going beyond dissing the software to making personal attacks on its developers. (Hence the, "We are not obligated to provide open forums for you to attack us personally.") Troy is not talking about normal users, or even slightly whiny users. He's talking about the downright poisonous "users" that have been polluting the Dot, blogs, and mailing lists recently, that aren't contributing or providing constructive criticism, but merely calling names and slandering people. "If the users are harming the project, we don't need those users." He's talking about HARMFUL users. In the same way a country needs citizens, but not HARMFUL citizens, like serial killers or bank robbers.

And frankly, you all must admit Troy is right when he says, "KDE and open source is not ever obligated to please users. We are not obligated to fix bugs. We are not obligated to implement things that you demand." KDE is a community effort. It's kind enough to share its software with anyone in the world, whether they give back or not. But if you merely bash and insult the developers, they sure as hell ain't obligated to be nice to you. So please, I've read enough "KDE4 sucks I'm switching to Gnome" rants for one lifetime. My heart aches for one, just ONE "KDE4 sucks - what can I do to help?" rant.

(By the way, I'm using KDE 4 daily now, as the kde-nightly Kubuntu packages haved finally achieved enough awesomeness for me to separate from my beloved KDE 3.5.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: You misunderstand Troy, I think
(Anonymous)
2008-06-26 04:43 pm UTC (link)

Well I think i have not misunderstand him.

And I have read planetkde nearly every single post and a lot of the comments. I also tried to read the maillinglists. But well because of the things you mentioned that is not always fun. So i think i understand what is it all about. But his blog post is so negative. Sure he is right. The devs can do whatever they want. The user have no rights for force them to fix bugs or doing whatever.

But I do not think that this blog post will do anything good. It makes me angry. Someoe else (forgot who) has posted another blog here because he didn't like this article too. So yeah most of the things are correct. But the headline itself is plain wrong and contents maybe correct but not helpful to the current problems there are. Sure they make a valid point. And it is good to keep that in mind (as as developer and as a user).

But if you want to (and you see some do) you can read an attitude into his post which does not represent the one of all constributors to KDE

DanielW

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: You misunderstand Troy, I think - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 04:49 pm UTC

Re: You misunderstand Troy, I think - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 05:03 pm UTC

Re: You misunderstand Troy, I think - (Anonymous), 2008-06-26 05:57 pm UTC

Re: You misunderstand Troy, I think - (Anonymous), 2008-06-27 07:07 am UTC

Re: You misunderstand Troy, I think - (Anonymous), 2008-07-29 06:44 pm UTC

Projects need users...
(Anonymous)
2008-06-27 08:54 pm UTC (link)

Err. So, if KDE devs were to make all the applications that will run KDE themselves you wouldn't need users.

The problem is, if there aren't users, or a good amount of users, third parties won't bother making their software work fine in KDE. Because there would be no potential 'profit' in letting that happen. Accept it, every once in a while a big third party app (I can think of run time environments, emulators and virtual machines) would have issues with a window manager who is going to fix issues that appear in a window manager that is not really used by a considerable amount of people?

(Reply to this)

	*We obviously do* have a crisis** (Anonymous) 2008-06-29 01:08 am UTC (link)
	and blog entries like these are as obvious not helpful. If you feel better now, fine. Please note that you contributed to a further escalation of the conflict. Let's see how far we get it until KDE breaks :( (Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2008-06-30 03:54 am UTC (link)
	Was doing some research for a comment on Linux Hater's blog, and this is the kind of attitude that I find... I am surprised that there's still people using KDE since no distribution uses it as default. (Reply to this)

	couldn't agree more (Anonymous) 2008-07-04 06:25 am UTC (link)
	i'm a user of many projects... i have enough "developer experience" to know what it takes. i couldn't have said what you have better. people will complan about anything these days... i can understand fully why you've had enough :-/ (Reply to this)

Not entirely true..
(Anonymous)
2008-07-04 11:11 am UTC (link)

As an open source project developer, I can entirely understand the feelings and emotions going on over here.. Worthwhile and constructive criticism is definitely appreciated. But, if you are not satisfied with the product, just shut up and use another alternative.. No one asked you to use KDE/any other open source product in the first place. Go use the overhyped close sourced products and be happy. You dig your own hole and fall into it and do not blame the product. If you so feel that the product sucks, then do something to improve it.. If not, be silent and go do something useful. We do not get any money from you to create our product. If you seriously think that if i dont fix that ugly bug that you just reported, i will be affected.. excuse me.. there are tons of other users who are satisfied and use my project.. n-1 is definetely not going to hurt me.. infact n-k where k >>>1 also doesnt affect me.. Unless some of that persons in "k" factor happen to be paid users.. Only thing that drives the open source developers are a sense of achievement and good appreciation. We are least cared about what you feel about the prouduct.

(Reply to this)

Redmond, rejoice
(Anonymous)
2008-07-04 04:50 pm UTC (link)

What an excellent piece of fodder for the Redmond FUD cannon: "<bullet point number 17> Open source thinks users should go fuck themselves and aren't interested in serving them either (just look at this page (http://troy-at-kde.livejournal.com/17753.html))". Or how about a slogan for their anti-Linux ads: "Windows Vista - we have an interest in pleasing you (whereas Linux don't give a damn)".

You're right, you have no obligation to please our users. But if you don't, I suggest you pack your stuff, bugger the fuck off and leave development to the professionals - that's your prerogative.

</end rant>

Sure, some users make unreasonable demands - but that does not justify a general anti-user sentiment as the one expressed in your post.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Redmond, rejoice
(Anonymous)
2008-07-04 08:55 pm UTC (link)

I have just one more Linux distro to wipe KDE off of and the uber geeks at KDE can sit in a back room and play with code all day long . I booted up XP yesterday for the first time in over a year for some needed Bluetooth functionality . Its a shame UI development is taking a back seat to basic functionality like , for example , a decent bluetooth tool . It's pathetic when that UI is the most vile piece of software in recent memory . It's mind boggling when a developer says he doesn't need users for a project whose front page says "built with ease of use and modern accessibility principles in mind" . Just who in the hell is the software built for then ? Change the wording and keep you're garbage in house if that's what you want . For all the brown nosers defending this joker and telling critics they should read more carefully , they should read more carefully themselves . This joker made no distinction when he said KDE doesn't need users . Excellent , the Linux community can move on to a better interface . Adios mother fucker .

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Misguided rant
(Anonymous)
2008-07-05 06:48 pm UTC (link)

What a terribly misguided post.

It can only come from a project as irrelevant as KDE.

This is why the DE has failed where Gnome has surpassed it - they don't have the features nailed, but they know what their users want.

As for the message of this post, yes, KDE does need users, as does any other open-source project. Unless you plan on hacking on the applications 24/7, it is users who provide feedback, discover and file bug reports, provide you with feature requests which improve the whole application for everyone and basically users serve the role of quality assurance in open-source apps. And suppose KDE were to improve without the input of its users....where do you see it going with only the people hacking on it using it? Nowhere. KDE needs a lot of improvement now, but not this attitude. And here's something you should look at today. Go to KDE's help page. It says right there. Software can always be improved. We need your help. This is the last message to be posted on this blog, which goes against the very spirit of open-source software.

(Reply to this)

I understand where you're coming from...

thenixedreport
2008-07-06 06:20 am UTC (link)

As a person who has worked in retail, I can understand the frustration of dealing with the not so nice and downright rude and pompous (and really arrogant) as they feel it is their right to make you feel like their slave. I myself have blogged about this:

http://wearenixed.blogspot.com/2008/07/customer-service-blows.html

I'm not the only one standing up for you. Please, hang in there.

(Reply to this)

	o_O (Anonymous) 2008-07-29 07:19 pm UTC (link)
	The irony is just too much to bear. If you want to be a project written for its own sake that other people happen to find useful, drop the PR campaign, quit practically begging for users with each release, and leave the marketing hat off for good. Or, deal with the users you asked for. (Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2008-07-29 08:33 pm UTC (link)
	and this is why opensource will always lag behind the competition. your stupid god like syndrom. and this is why your hated microsoft will continue to be a step before you. they don't diss their users. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2008-07-30 12:27 am UTC (link)
	Amazing what billions of dollars does to make one put on a better show of a positive attitude when lusers act like idiots. Score one for Microsoft, and you... (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2008-07-29 09:33 pm UTC (link)

Rant or no, what a terrible attitude to take towards your users. I hope this isn't a rising trend with opensource software given that the Pidgin developers have recently adopted this very same philosophy (we're just writing this software for ourselves, not for users so screw off).

Don't like the user feedback? Stop distributing the software. Just share it amongst your developer friends, pat yourselves on the back, and enjoy.

Want less negative feedback? Don't release a barely alpha quality project and deem it a .0 final release.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2008-07-29 11:52 pm UTC (link)
	I think you're the targeted type of self-important user who needs to hide and go fuck off. Rather than this list of "Don't? Then!" shit, try pulling your head out of your ass and looking around a little bit. The developers DO CARE. But some users don't. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-07-30 04:43 pm UTC

	Yes (Anonymous) 2008-07-30 01:18 am UTC (link)
	You're totally right. I work on a different OSS project and I have much experience of idiotic users who think we (developers) should be running around to serve their demands non-stop.. and then get shitty as soon as we don't do it quick enough. So it's not just KDE that gets this. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Yes hornseyelec 2009-09-23 12:03 pm UTC (link)
	So youve made a program where you dont plan to please the users? Seems pretty pointless to me. Hornsey Electricians (Reply to this) (Parent)

(86 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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